OoC Topic: Hybrid vs. Pure

[Stiletto]

Let's see if we can get some theorycraft drama going, shall we?

What are people's honest viewpoints and opinions about the class design overhaul implemented with Wrath?

Developers

- Raid buffs mostly raidwide and available from multiple classes.
- DPS spread tightened to within 5%, with DPS/CC leading (theoretically: it isn't there for sure)
- 'No class is necessary. Bring the Player not the Class.'

Well assuming they hit their DPS targets, I think this is great. I do not feel that DPS classes have become useless either: they will still bring higher damage. They will bring the most reliable Control. They round out the gear needs, so there are less wasted drops and therefore faster progression. A raid of all hybrids is weaker then a raid that is well rounded with an even distribution of classes.

In short: Rogues are not useless. Mages are not useless. Warlocks and Hunters are not useless. Dual Spec will make these classes even stronger because the casters in particular will be able to maximize two different DPS/Control roles far better then Hybrids. Hunters could have Survival dual specced 'just in case'. Even Rogues can benefit some by having a Sub spec in their pocket for more reliable Sapping, better stealth, and more emergency buttons in general.

Wrath class design is a giant leap in the right direction. I hope they keep heading down this path.

[Kail]

I agree completely. Blizzard's direction benefits all of us by allowing more flexible group composition, which is great. It does not mean that pure classes are less viable options.

For those that would argue otherwise, ask yourself a simple question: Do you really think that Blizzard would find it acceptable that a large portion of the classes in their game be considered "second-class" in groups/raids?

I'm confident that if the numbers cause this to become an issue...it will not be in line with Blizzard's intent, and the numbers will be altered.

[Bashyou]

It doesn't matter what blizz does, gnomes will always be considered 2nd class.

[Adnama]

nomz SECOND class ?

They don't even have a class. Except Fi. She is all class. I cant believe Xal lets her play a nom. :)

[Davidson]

As long as Blizzard ensures Rogues/Warlocks/Mages/Hunters do more damage than the other classes then the design is fine. As soon as there is a situation where the other classes can surpass or equal their DPS, things start to fall apart. Hopefully that doesn't happen.

[Malancthon]

But why does it have to fall apart? People have invested a lot of time and money into characters they play, hopefully, because they like the play style. I think you'll still have plenty of people who are plenty committed to her or his class just as long as they feel like they are contributing to the overall success to the raid. Maybe I'm wrong. Maybe people like Hidden and Sudac will feel tremendously slighted if they don't out DPS everyone else in the raid. But I think that feelings will be assuaged by the ability to put successful raids together no matter if you've min/maxed your raid composition class wise like Elitist Jerks or another hard core raiding guild.

[Davidson]

Malancthon

But why does it have to fall apart? People have invested a lot of time and money into characters they play, hopefully, because they like the play style. I think you'll still have plenty of people who are plenty committed to her or his class just as long as they feel like they are contributing to the overall success to the raid. Maybe I'm wrong. Maybe people like Hidden and Sudac will feel tremendously slighted if they don't out DPS everyone else in the raid. But I think that feelings will be assuaged by the ability to put successful raids together no matter if you've min/maxed your raid composition class wise like Elitist Jerks or another hard core raiding guild.

It falls apart when Blizzard balances encounters based on the fact that you have absolute max DPS/healing/tanking. If none of the encounters in wotlk are tuned that tightly then it doesn't matter. For example lets say.... boomkin druids do the most DPS out of *all* specs, and blizzard balances a raid encounter based around max dps (they have been doing this with enrage times for all of TBC, could change though). If you *don't* stack a ton of boomkin in this scenario it's going to be much harder or impossible to beat the encounter until it gets changed/nerfed in some fashion.

[Hidden]

See how it goes but at the moment, completely unhappy with the way "DPS" is going to be in Woltk. Played this rogue as a "pure" dps class for since day 1. If i knew that "hybrid" would have the same capability AND bring more to the raid, then I would have rolled another class. Why the heck would you bring a rogue/mage/hunter/warlock when you can get an "extra" healer/tank in a pinch (or in this case, a simple respecc on the fly). This whole dual spec IMO benefits rogues/mage/hunters/warlocks the least compared to hybrids in general. "OH LOOK! I CAN SWITCH FROM MELEE/SPELL DPS TO UMMM...." People can argue about "Oh, you can have a "trash spec" and a "boss spec". Not sure how the other pure dps classes goes but its pretty much just some gear adjustment for rogues. Hey, As I said, see how it goes when launch day comes.

[Stiletto]

Yet it seems Blizz is designing things so that DPS/CC classes produce top DPS when played by nonsuck players. (I will call the 4 classes 'Pure' when they have as little CC as an EQ Wizard.. until then you are DPS/CC) Rogue is the only DPS/CC class without significant AoE. They also have the least viable non combat control. Even Wrath Hunters have good AoE now and have always had good control and great control when specced for it. However that is a single Class issue, not a 'OMG teh Hybridz R takin Ovar' issue. Rogues flat out need AE to compete in today's DPS world. Mages, Hunters and Warlocks are not facing the same issues at all.

[Davidson]

Oh I agree that they are trying to balance it like that, I just don't know if it will end up that way. Blizzard has screwed up scaling so many times that I'm not sure I trust them to keep the correct DPS ratios in future raid tiers. Hopefully I'm wrong. Looks like their plan is to have rogues be #1 since they can't really AoE too.

[Stiletto]

Actually the sad part is that GC said they didn't pay a lot of attention to scaling before this xpac/revamp. No wonder they got caught with there pants down in both endgames before. That doesn't mean they have it all under control now, but at least it is on their radar.

[Death Dealer]

it appears to me they are trying to make up for lack of knowledge. making classes easier to achieve max DPS. they want more guilds in the end game i assume.

should play a dramatic role in PvP... :(

[Kinjite]

Bashyou

It doesn't matter what blizz does, gnomes will always be considered 2nd class.

Bite me!

[Kinjite]

Adnama

nomz SECOND class ?

They don't even have a class. Except Fi. She is all class. I cant believe Xal lets her play a nom. :)

perfect height, nuff said.

[Bashyou]

Bite me!

I would except my back hurts and i can't bend over that far.

PS you need to update you forum title to "Gnome King"

[shadyone]

This is an interesting topic, and one I am concerned with along with other players. No matter which class we play, we should feel wanted in a group if we invest a lot of time gearing and learning the best ways to deal damage/tank/heal/cc with our characters.

The pure dps classes dealing around 5% more damage then hybrids sounds reasonable to me. I like the theory that player skill/time/effort/research > player class. However, with that said:

Druid: Roots+Cyclone, usable indoors.
Shaman: Hex.
Paladin: Repentance.
Warrior: Intimidating Shout. (weakest CC no argument there)
Priest: Mind Control.

My point here is this : EVERY CLASS in the game has CC. CC is no longer a role when every single class can perform it in some way or another. When we speak about roles, we should speak about things that not everyone can do. With this logic, I can say that using resources (rage, runic power, mana, energy, etc) is a role. To be honest, I only consider DPS a role since you cannot DPS and heal/tank at the same time. If you could dps simultaneously, then dps would no longer be a role in my book.

In other games such as Everquest CC was a role. Not everyone could do it. In WoW CC is not a role, because not only can everyone CC, but it is fire and forget with a few exceptions. You CC, then you go back to doing your primary job, whatever that may be. Or in the case of Mind Control for example, you USE your CC to do your primary job (DPS).

I do understand that pure dps classes for the most part have stronger CC, and I hope the final number spread starts to look more even then what I am currently seeing.