RECRUITS! READ THIS!

[Lunariel]

If you have joined OoC in the past month, your provisional membership is nearing expiration. You need to find an officer sponsor and at least ten other advocates. Have these people contact me on your behalf. Please do so ASAP.

Monday I will post the recruits who are up for membership review. If 5 people contact me in opposition to this membership, they will be removed from guild.

On Wednesday, those recruits who have been with OoC longer than a month and have not met the membership requirement will be removed from guild.

[Kinjite]

I know several recruits who have been invited, please don't neglect this.

[Bashyou]

An officer and 10 members? Isn't that a little excessive?

[ProPyro]

Slightly, I don't even know any people that are on probationary memberships. Then again I've only been back a week and I don't think my opinion would be of much good.

[Muljaque]

I can be one of your ten! Send me mail in-game.

My rates are very reasonable:

humans: 1 gold
night elfs: 1 gold
dranei: 1 gold
dwarfs: 1 gold
gnomes: 20 gold

okay just kidding. just send me a tell...

[Lunariel]

Bashyou

An officer and 10 members? Isn't that a little excessive?

This is the exact policy that was posted last month. It is the number that the guild leadership decided upon ... There was no debate about this number being too high.

The discussion revolved around the fact that far too many of our current members do not know and are not known by many other members. We want a closer, more friendly guild. Its the "Cheers Philosophy." You know "sometime you wanna go where everybody knows your name. And their always glad you came."

If, after a month in OoC, a recruit is unable to reach out to just ten people, this is only contributing to our situation. We want to get our members talking with each other, grouping together, questing together, and building relationships.

If a person can't even introduce themselves and briefly talk with someone different every three days (on average), they are not a good candidate for membership in OoC. They are a good candidate for membership on the friends list of the 3 or 4 or 6 people they DO talk to.

It may sound harsh ... I really think it is not difficult and serves the vision of the guild.

[Bashyou]

I guess I see issues with new people breaking into some of the cliques that OOC is. Sure we have the occasional open raid where people can meet new members, however most of our members have 5-10 close friends that they group/quest/raid with and fill in a random spot here and there via /w (which 99% of the time will not be a new recruit).

Don't get me wrong I see what the officers are trying to do with new recruits to make sure they fit in, however this rule is hindered 100% by our existing membership's play style and attitudes (myself included). As of right now we have 0 social guild events and no consistent open raids where new members can get involved in.

And just for the record there is no way Cliff Claven could get 10 people to vouch for him.

[Lunariel]

Bashyou

I guess I see issues with new people breaking into some of the cliques that OOC is. Sure we have the occasional open raid where people can meet new members, however most of our members have 5-10 close friends that they group/quest/raid with and fill in a random spot here and there via /w (which 99% of the time will not be a new recruit).

Don't get me wrong I see what the officers are trying to do with new recruits to make sure they fit in, however this rule is hindered 100% by our existing membership's play style and attitudes (myself included). As of right now we have 0 social guild events and no consistent open raids where new members can get involved in.

And just for the record there is no way Cliff Claven could get 10 people to vouch for him.

Well, we can have a chicken or egg discussion here. Is the current guild environment a product of the small group mentality or is it the cause? Whatever the case, I think that most of the people who have been with OoC since 2 B.C. (before crusade) or longer would agree that our guild environment has changed. New P10 dynamic has not helped this.

This cycle does feed into itself. Small group mentality leads to members not knowing each other well. Members not knowing each other well leads to not bringing "new people" into groups. At some point, this chain has to be broken.
We want our guild to be closer to what we were than what we are. We want OoC to have a relationship matrix not a membership chain. I am not sure I am making sense here. :)

We know there are issues in OoC right now. We are working to fix them and will be meeting tomorrow night to work on them again. I have another idea I want to bring up at that time that may make the membership process not just easier, but actually fun. :)

[Bashyou]

I just don't understand this rule at this point simply because we are only inviting family and real life friends to the guild (what better reference could you possibly need?).

[Lunariel]

Bashyou

I just don't understand this rule at this point simply because we are only inviting family and real life friends to the guild (what better reference could you possibly need?).

This was taken into account in the discussion. It was conveyed that friends and family will serve as a head start for sponsorship.

[Ockham]

I wonder how many of our current members and officers would never have made it past their first month if this rule had been in place?

[Davidson]

Lunariel

I think that most of the people who have been with OoC since 2 B.C. (before crusade) or longer would agree that our guild environment has changed. New P10 dynamic has not helped this.

The "clique" thing has been around for as long as I can remember, going back multiple games. I'd be surprised if it doesn't exist in some fashion in any group of people larger than 20.

[Lunariel]

Ockham

I wonder how many of our current members and officers would never have made it past their first month if this rule had been in place?

A good question. I guess it is lucky for them (or us) that this was not the case as it is right now.

[Malachor]

Ockham

I wonder how many of our current members and officers would never have made it past their first month if this rule had been in place?

Officers? None. Members? Maybe a few.

But geez there's all kinds of whining whenever the officers try to introduce anything remotely resembling standards or improvements for the guild.

Is it really that hard in 30 days to run 2-3 p5s or help some people with quests or PvP with some guild members and then say "Hey, that was fun. Do you think I could get you to send a note to an officer to let them know you think I'd make a good addition to the guild?"

If OoC is so tightly wound that a new person can't meet 10 people in 30 days then does OoC really want new members?

Conversely if a new member is so introverted they can't reach out to 10 people to group, quest, play etc. within 30 days then do they really want to be part of OoC?

[Lunariel]

Davidson

The "clique" thing has been around for as long as I can remember, going back multiple games. I'd be surprised if it doesn't exist in some fashion in any group of people larger than 20.

I agree this is the case to a degree. It has, however, become worse in TBC.

[Muljaque]

Perhaps not make it a one way street. Challenge each existing member to find at least one or two recruits to evaluate and potentially vouch for...

[Badger]

Muljaque

Perhaps not make it a one way street. Challenge each existing member to find at least one or two recruits to evaluate and potentially vouch for...

Like the "sponsorship" we all miss so much from AC?

[Bashyou]

But geez there's all kinds of whining whenever the officers try to introduce anything remotely resembling standards or improvements for the guild

I am sorry if you see my posts as whining. My intention was simply to question a new guild policy that realistically doesn't impact any current guild members. It appears to me that the problem with OOC being made up of several cliques has more to do with our existing membership and not with the 2-4 people we pickup each month.

[Malachor]

Bashyou

I am sorry if you see my posts as whining.

I don't think you're really sorry :)

And it's not one particular post bash from you or anyone else. Its just the fact that the officers can't post anything without everyone jumping on them about it being too draconian or excessive.

I think Mulj said it in the "log in once a month thread". We either trust these people to lead the guild and do what they feel is in it's best interests or we don't. Having everything they decide to do get questioned gets exhausting for anyone.


Just let them do their thing. I'm sure when they want our feedback they'll ask us :)

[Lunariel]

Bashyou

It appears to me that the problem with OOC being made up of several cliques has more to do with our existing membership and not with the 2-4 people we pickup each month.

Bash, I have a great deal of respect for you. I wish you had not decided to leave the OoC leadership team. You may have been able to lend some insight or ideas in the officer meeting before we decided upon this course.

This conversation notwithstanding, there have been few solutions proposed to these problems.

This is our policy. Until we have better ideas, it is what we are doing.

[stark]

Here's a better idea, since there appears to be very little "community" aspect in the game (Raids being under 25 people, and no communal hall or events.)

Why not let provisional members be automatically added after 30 days, and put their names up. If after a week or so there are no objections, add them. For anyone with objections require that member has to have 5 recommendations per objection. This eliminates the need for the person to find 10 people to "vouch" for them.

Let's face it, if a friend wants to get in the game, and start from scratch with a character, they're not going to be interfacing all too much with most of the people at the end game.... if anyone at all. This makes it difficult if not nearly impossible to recruit.

Shit, if I want to come back, I personally feel I could only get a handful of people that I know to actually say "yeah, i remember him and think its ok if he plays again." But would that make me any less effective or friendly to help the guild?

No.

I applaud the efforts to keep the numbers to a manageable level and to serve a group of people who put a LOT of time and effort into the group, but I don't feel that the "policy" is in line with the original ideals of this fun guild's origination.

[Bashyou]

I don't think you're really sorry :)

And it's not one particular post bash from you or anyone else. Its just the fact that the officers can't post anything without everyone jumping on them about it being too draconian or excessive.

I think Mulj said it in the "log in once a month thread". We either trust these people to lead the guild and do what they feel is in it's best interests or we don't. Having everything they decide to do get questioned gets exhausting for anyone.


Just let them do their thing. I'm sure when they want our feedback they'll ask us :)

I assumed that posting this information in an open forum was an invitation for conversation.....

Please don't mistake my comments as demands, they are not and never intended to be. I fully trust the leadership of this guild to make solid plans for the future of this guild and at the same time be able to handle questions and concerns while rolling out new policies.

[shadyone]

To be honest, I for one am happy to see leadership attempting to create a closer knit guild. Yes there are cliques, and there are 3 top reasons for their existance:

1) The people you typically group with are your friends/family.

2) You perceive the people you group with to be superior players.

3) You share similar goals with the people you are grouping with. IE, you want that pvp honor, those achievements, or to defeat X dungeons for badges.

4) You perceive a class/spec to be more valuable then other class/specs. This is something that I hope Blizzard has changed with all the huge changes going on to raid mechanics and makeup.

Ultimately, I believe we all want the same things.

We all want to improve our game. NONE of us have mastered world of warcraft, not even those of us who have played since release day in 2004 and in the original beta. The game is constantly evolving and we are always learning. Complacency and believing you have mastered the game will only result in losing your edge.

We want to help others master the game. Some of us have more time to play and hence learn some of the ropes faster then other players just due to sheer amount of time played. Let us try to help people get caught up to speed, even if it means your buddy's dps will be close to your own. This is of course if our friends and guildmates are willing to listen.

We want to feel wanted when group invites/raid invites come around. No one likes sitting on the sidelines, so we have a responsibility to work on our gear, and improve our game. Go above and beyond to help people and folks will notice. For example, I went with my warlock all the time to ZA and KZ to help people gear up when I had no material reason to be there. When you help people, they want to invite you to their groups.

I understand why OOC started raiding with Iravien, we didn't have enough people online to really do much about a month ago. Currently, there are over 40 people online every night during primetime with WOTLK release imminent. We should be doing more guild events (whether its classic dungeons, TK, BT, Hyjal, or whatever). I feel that alot have lost faith that this guild is capable of doing those things of its own accord, and I feel this just isn't the case.

Me personally, I just want to play with you guys. I always have. Even if I have switched my mains. Please stop whispering me to bring my alt (warlock) to things. I am a competent player and I can promise you the dps my paladin puts out is reasonable (over 1200).

Finally, one last thing to get off my chest. This website is the guild focal point, it always has been. Bring back the guild calendar as the focal point for raids/guild events. Not the Iravien website. Not the ingame calendar. Don't fix what isn't broken in my opinion.

[Muljaque]

stark

Here's a better idea, since there appears to be very little "community" aspect in the game (Raids being under 25 people, and no communal hall or events.)

Why not let provisional members be automatically added after 30 days, and put their names up. If after a week or so there are no objections, add them. For anyone with objections require that member has to have 5 recommendations per objection. This eliminates the need for the person to find 10 people to "vouch" for them.

I like it, except that it in theory might encourage someone to lay low for 30 days. Still, all this discussion of it is good...

I agree completely that this website should be a big focal point of the guild. If new recruits are active in posting here that goes a long way in my book into making them part of the guild...

[Malachor]

Bashyou

I assumed that posting this information in an open forum was an invitation for conversation.....

Well it is in the Announcements forum not a discussion forum. ;)

And sometimes posts are just here to disseminate information but to your point maybe Luna should have locked this thread after posting it.

So once again it all comes back to being Luna's fault. I'm ok with that.