RECRUITS! READ THIS!

[Ockham]

RageKage

the only thing left is to claim we're tyrants

Except I didn't, I said people are perceiving you as such, last time I checked perception and reality weren't necessarily the same. I chose that word because I know you guys aren't really tyrants, you're just coming off that way in this thread.

[mystalia]

Ockham

...what are the ultimate goals of these changes?

...I suspect there are deeper motives...

...a lot of the policies you are pushing seem way more applicable to guilds who expect to be hardcore raiding...

If I misunderstood you Ock, I apologize, but it sounds like you're bringing up the 'we're trying to make the guild a hardcore raiding guild' conspiracy theory again.

Let's face it, if the leadership was really trying to make this a hard-core raiding guild, it's far easier to just disband the guild and reform it inviting only the hard-core raiders.

As far as I can tell, the officers, and Luna in particular, are just trying some new ideas to bring the 'family' feeling back into the guild. Let's give the new ideas a try before we start bashing em.

[PurpleVixen]

Freaky

in my humble opinion that quote embodies the exact mentallity that the people here are afraid is happening (yes i know i just single handedly raped & destroyed proper grammar in that sentence)

which comes across as=
if you are not helping further the end game goals & agendas of certain folk then you are viewed as a hinderance

ok, that is the most frank & clear way i can think of explaining it. sorry maybe that had some acidy tasting venom in there that wasnt meant to be.

but i think that is the message somehow some folks seem to be getting?

i have friends here, i come here to have fun! i would like to have fun with my GF, i would like for my GF to meet the friends i do have here & also share this "fun"

as a person i get along with everyone! ask super, polarisa, tirgerbarb or purplevixxen they have known me for a long time. i want everyone to just be happy and have fun!

You officers do a good job! i bet it is tough haveing to deal with this guild.

Hell i am the production manager of the largest machine shop in corpus christi, i deal with a ton of people, & unexpected crap & deadlines everyday at work (once again ask any of the folks i named above) i am also a single father of 4 kids that live with me full time. so once i get to leave my work i have to take care of them and try to be the live up to the role model i wish for them to see me as to get them off to a good life and be good people.

when they finally go to bed & i have done dishes, laundry and straighten up the house and can squeeze in 2-3 (if lucky) to log into the game the very last thing i wanna think about is responisiblities rules & regulations.

But i do understand they have to be there or CHAOS will reign.

i just think what you guys (officers) have put together which made perfect sense in your meetings/discussions some how came across miscomunicated some how? maybe? and that is why this thread wont die? lol.

i know at work i can tell an employee exactly what needs to be done on a job & somne how they can still scrap a thousand dollar part. & it ends up in some little niche or area there was a misunderstanding or communication break down.

anyhow i am shutting the fook up now.
love everyone, treat everyone as you wanted treated & have fun folks!

Stop being a whiny little bitch. It was a joke. :)

[Ockham]

mystalia

If I misunderstood you Ock, I apologize, but it sounds like you're bringing up the 'we're trying to make the guild a hardcore raiding guild' conspiracy theory again.

Sorry if I came off that way, I don't believe in that theory, I just used that phrasing because I think some of the policies under discussion are best used in that sort of guild context, and don't really fit the 'family' atmosphere you mentioned. Which is one of the reasons I voiced my opinions about it in the first place.

Now that I have I will shut up as I didn't think some simple questions would provoke this level of drama and that wasn't particularly my intention. Time will tell I guess.

[Badger]

K, going to repost the original in its entirety so we can all see what we're arguing about here

>>>>>>>>>First and foremost, OOC is currently CLOSED to all non RL friends and family.

Secondly and secondmost, Lunariel is OOC's new recruitment officer, God grant mercy on his soul and congratulations you poor poor sucker! :)

As such he has drafted the following:

Membership Policy

Applications - Anyone wishing to join Order of Chaos must complete a membership application (Even long standing members who may have been removed due to inactivity). There are no exceptions to this policy. Applications will be reviewed by guild leadership. Applicants will be evaluated at this point and if the reviewing officer deems it appropriate, provisional membership will be granted (recruit status).

Friends and Family - Real life friends and family of OoC members have the possibility of joining even during times of closed recruitment. Any member of Order of Chaos may request provisional membership for the aforementioned friend or relative. These potential members must still complete an application for membership.

Provisional Membership - Provisional membership is a thirty day evaluation period. Provisional membership will not last longer than thirty days. At the end of this period the disposition of the provisional member will be determined in the following manner:

Provisional members wishing to obtain guild member status will need to have no fewer than ten members and one officer recommendations for approval. Moreover, provisional members may not have more that five members or officers recommend declination of membership.

Accountability - Members are responsible for the actions and behavior of the friends and relatives they recommend. If these players act in a way that is not in keeping with the standards of Order of Chaos, they will be removed. The person who recommended them will be held accountable for their actions. After the first such incident an officer will talk with the recommending member. If this happens a second time this person faces the possibility of punitive actions which may include demotion or, possibly, removal from the guild for repeat offenders.

Activity - Members of Order of Chaos are here to play with their friends and guild mates. In order to maintain a lean, manageable roster and identify potential class recruiting needs, players who are inactive for a period of greater than one month will be removed from the guild.

Thank you for putting this together Lun!

<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

This is just my point of view, so please bear with. There is a long standing truism about France and Germany that goes something like this: In France, as long as something is not forbidden, it's permitted; in Germany, as long as something is not permitted, its forbidden. That leaves a whole heck of a lot of gray area where certain actions will get you a nod and a wink in one place, and tossed into the slammer in another.

So, reguarding the post I read on 10/18 or whenever I got around to it. When I read the thing the first time, it seemed as though - as long as 5 people did not speak out against - the new recruit could stay. But it seems what Luna meant was - as long as 10 people in guild do not speak up for the new recruit- they go.

Lord only knows our officers put up with a lot of crap, and they certainly are getting more than their fair share now. But we're dealing with a gray area where one person said one thing (with an "and") and some of read it as an "or."

He says on Monday he will post the names of those affected. In the meantime, lets see how this works. No body ever said if someone gets tossed that they'll never be invited back. By the same measure, there is no guarantee that if you've been a member forever, you wont get tossed. If this system does,'t work, a new one will be implemented. Lets just see what chips fall and where before we get all up in each other's faces.

my 2 cents, for what they're worth.

-Badger

[RageKage]

Badger

So, reguarding the post I read on 10/18 or whenever I got around to it. When I read the thing the first time, it seemed as though - as long as 5 people did not speak out against - the new recruit could stay. But it seems what Luna meant was - as long as 10 people in guild do not speak up for the new recruit- they go.

It's a bit of both.

I'll walk through the thought process:

You're a new recruit, you play in guild for a month - you talk to an officer (anytime you see one on, or it could happen when they ginvite you) about the guild. The officer will ask questions, things like, what are your goals, favourite colours and if you like long walks on the beach. Whatever, doesn't matter - it's what we think is important.

You also group with your friends, do some p5's. Participate in a guild discussion, yadda yadda yadda.

30 days are up, we post the names of the latest recruits to the guild forums - those people need to contact Luna and tell him 2 things, 10 guild members they know, grouped with, talked with, etc. and an officer they've talked to.

Luna takes the time to talk to those 10 players and the officer and forms an opinion, he could if he so chooses to delegate to another officer if his workload is too big.

If everything goes well, the recruit is promoted to member and we run naked through Ogrimmar to celebrate as initation.

Now in the case where/if things go bad - when the names are posted to the forums and we receive bad feedback if there are more than 5 the recruit is removed from the guild.

I know this isn't explicitly stated in the post, nor is it said in luna's post, but many people would prefer jump to conclusions and claim foul before really asking what's going on.

[Freaky]

PurpleVixen

Stop being a whiny little bitch. It was a joke. :)

oh i know but it was a good example =P
you end game hardcore raider you!

[Ruddygore]

It is nice to see the Officers engaged and attempting to make the guild better. I applaud you for it and if it turns out to be a bad policy I am sure you will fix it.

I appreciate the time and effort you put into these decisions. I'm glad you do this all for my enjoyment.

I think that sometimes all you guys hear is the complaining.

[Kinjite]

mystalia

If I misunderstood you Ock, I apologize, but it sounds like you're bringing up the 'we're trying to make the guild a hardcore raiding guild' conspiracy theory again.

Let's face it, if the leadership was really trying to make this a hard-core raiding guild, it's far easier to just disband the guild and reform it inviting only the hard-core raiders.

As far as I can tell, the officers, and Luna in particular, are just trying some new ideas to bring the 'family' feeling back into the guild. Let's give the new ideas a try before we start bashing em.

Amen Myst! We are trying to stop exactly what you mentioned. A fracturing of the guild into a hardcore raiding guild and a social club. Right now we are a bit of both. This has good and bad points. One of the main bad points is a lack of accountability and dedication in end game content. One of the goals of tonight's meeting will be to discuss this.

[Zymun]

Bah, fuck you all.

I say this purely to add to the quota of "fuck" in this thread. As you were.

[Neit]

Ruddygore

It is nice to see the Officers engaged and attempting to make the guild better. I applaud you for it and if it turns out to be a bad policy I am sure you will fix it.

I appreciate the time and effort you put into these decisions. I'm glad you do this all for my enjoyment.

I think that sometimes all you guys hear is the complaining.

QFT

As much as I might bitch about exactly how you guys do things I'm still happy that you guys trying to make things better around here for all of us.

And for Zymun: fuck, fuck, fuckity-fuck-fuck

[Terekronos]

The basic idea seems simple and laudable enough.

Are new recruits visible in the guild? Have they done runs? Have they posted on the forum? Have they PvPed with people? Have they just shot the shit in /g enough that people know their names?

Yes?

Then they're participating, and that's good.

I'm wondering if some kind of advisor/mentor structure would be a good idea, though, if people are this concerned about orphaned recruits. New recruits should have someone established that they can /w questions to, or have help them through dungeons or the like. Logically that should be one of the officers, but I can just as easily see it as being an established player, including the one who invited them.

In any case, I'm open to Reference Runs for any newbie that catches me online.