Guild Recruitment from 10/16/8 onward

[Yordad]

Adnama

SO the next time I go afk I am in danger of having to reapply AND avoid 5 people saying they don't want me back?!

All the officers owe me money! They'd love to see me gone! You'll never get me !!!! NEVER!!!!! Muahahaha and all that crap

NONAMA!!
Says it all..

[Kinjite]

Lunariel

I may not be the man for this job.

I was pretty sure we'd discussed this in the vent chat, I may be confusing this with a discussion Sudac and I had. If so I apologize. I have no issue AT ALL with a perma boot of people bailing OOC for greener pastures. I was mainly concerned with people who left pre-policy, such as if Hellgreeter or Ultra wanted back in.

[Yordad]

I would like to see a "one time Prodigal Son" rule, for those that leave once, and see the error and return. That would be hard to keep up with tho. I am against people yo-yoing back and forth. People just stay and play for Chrizzakes, we have a gnome for a Leader, what more could you ask for??

[Lunariel]

Having a rule that would accommodate someone leaving us seems to run counter to what we would want to accomplish with guild unity. Instead, lets not make the decision to investigate "greener pastures" easy for them.

[Bek]

I agree with Luna.. and really, just cause you left the guild doesn't necessarily mean you're gone for good. If you really want to come back that badly, just reapply and go through the process. Just cause we CAN forgive, doesn't mean we should with open arms..

[Bashyou]

just cause you left the guild doesn't necessarily mean you're gone for good

Unless you participated in all those Luna / Wolf jokes, then you are screwed.

[Vittoria]

First of all....you guys know I'm not one to stir the pot or cause drama. I hate silly fights that happen on these boards and do my best to avoid it. However this made my head spin. I understand the issue with people not wandering off to other guilds/servers and fully agree with that. But like Fi, I'm having an issue with the fact that people like myself will be booted (possibly repeatedly) and have to reapply over and over when we aren't leaving of our own accord to find something better. You ask about paying and logging in less than once a month? I still pay my $14.95 monthly because I want to log on when I have a chance. But honestly, I BARELY have time or energy to do that these days and couldn't tell you the last time I read the boards before today (and came today cause I was prompted to do so this morning by someone). I'm starting a business and it's pretty much taken over my life, and also am living in the same state as my family and friends for the first time in 7 yrs and my old laptop was so overworked it couldn't run any games anymore. So because I have RL going on and haven't had time or a computer to log into a game and get on rosters and stuff, I'm going to be booted from a group I've considered friends....well not only booted, but I have to reapply to rejoin? I get the booting, but the reapplying and probation, etc seems a bit much for a group that last time I checked wasn't a hardcore raiding guild (or did I miss something?). I enjoy logging in and catching up with friends and grouping when I can. I don't want to leave somewhere I enjoy spending time. I know I'm not a raider, and right now don't want to be. Might that change in the future? Yep...but for now I'm a casual player and want nothing else. If that's not what you want representing OoC these days, just say the word and I'll add my friends to my buddy list then move on. I wouldn't want to cause unity problems with the guild by not logging in enough for your tastes. You guys might want to consider the rules for players booted for RL reasons who don't have time/computer to come and notify you ahead of time vs those who have gone off to play somewhere else. Cause it seems like you're lumping everyone into one pile here.

[Muljaque]

Lunariel

Having a rule that would accommodate someone leaving us seems to run counter to what we would want to accomplish with guild unity. Instead, lets not make the decision to investigate "greener pastures" easy for them.

The greener we make our pasture, the less we have to worry ;)

I dunno. I think you should allow yourself some room to use judgement in situations as they come up. Making hard and fast rules to apply to the future is your way of saying you don't trust your judgement in the future. Or you don't want to have to. Any law you come up with we can probably concoct a scenario that would run contrary to common sense when you look at it. I'm not saying its common, or even likely. But it could happen. I've been involved in an organization where we constantly were hamstrung by rules written into our by laws ages ago, trying to deal with situations we never anticipated back then.

By all means boot inactives for the sake of organization, but if someone leaves and wants to come back, then look at the situation and decide. If you don't think it is in the good of the guild to allow it, then tell them flat out, don't say, "sorry, we'd love to let you in but our hands are tied".

Maybe it is enough to make it clear that nothing is guaranteed if you leave.

[Kinjite]

To repeat what has been said before. Communication is the issue here. Just sned a note to one of the oficers saying, "Hey, I've got a RL and won't be on for a while". We'll make a note on the toon and it won't become an issue.

We're trying to avoid people vanishing for no forseeable reason and creeping back in months later without SOME sort of penalty. It's similar to the signing up for a raid and then not bothering to remove your name. Very little irritated me more than expecting a full or overfull raid and having people not show up.

Vitt, just send a note with a rough estimate, OR have Treb log ya in every once in a while :) Hell, I'll probably have to log in inocent every week or so.

[Vittoria]

Kinjite

To repeat what has been said before. Communication is the issue here. Just sned a note to one of the oficers saying, "Hey, I've got a RL and won't be on for a while". We'll make a note on the toon and it won't become an issue.

We're trying to avoid people vanishing for no forseeable reason and creeping back in months later without SOME sort of penalty. It's similar to the signing up for a raid and then not bothering to remove your name. Very little irritated me more than expecting a full or overfull raid and having people not show up.

Vitt, just send a note with a rough estimate, OR have Treb log ya in every once in a while :) Hell, I'll probably have to log in inocent every week or so.

ok, so PM sent and I forgot to add...Treb's in the same boat as me so if you could consider us a package deal with the note, that would be great. BTW the note thing was never mentioned in the original post...might wanna add that.


As for the original post and kin's reply to me. I still feel that not logging in for a while for whatever reason is not the same as signing up for a raid that you don't show for. The latter pisses me off to no end, but I don't see how someone who's not a raider and is sure she never signs up for stuff is in anyway detracting from the group when she has RL obligations.

I'm totally ok with the removing for inactivity, though think 30 days is too soon. What I have an issue with is the fact that I have to reapply every time I get booted if I forget to send a note. Hell I forget to bill for patients at this point, leaving messages about a game is the least of my worries.


What's the point for someone like myself or Fiona having to reapply? Wasn't there a "Raider" designation made specifically for people who were regular raiders and those of us without one couldn't raid anyway? Maybe if your star healer vanishes, it might be an issue...but if they're not there to begin with, then how is it a loss for the raid? You KNOW our intentions and what we plan to contribute to the guild. That doesn't change, so is there a really a need for an application? Wouldn't a talk to one of the officers do? By the time I get approved from the forum, there might be another 30 day window before I can log on again. I also know of at least one person who's lost internet service for financial reasons without much notice and who didn't have a non internet way of communicating with guild members. Seems crazy to make them fill out an application and have people discuss whether they should be allowed back in.

Sorry if I seem bitchy and nitpicky here, just seems like every time I turn around there's a new rule that makes it harder and harder to be a casual player in this guild. Have we gone hardcore? It's entirely possible I've missed something in my absence.

[Lunariel]

I just timed it. It takes about 45 seconds to log in. If requiring 9 minutes of a person’s time every year is too hardcore, perhaps not even we are casual enough for them. I am not sure how much someone could value this guild if this is too much work.

This policy is, to be frank, a filter. If we decide that a particular person, after their 4th departure, really doesn't fit us anyway, there is no need to gkick them ... just not invite them back. We fix the glitch, so to speak. It is easier to make hard rules and make judgments later than to sit here and outline every potential scenario in which a person may or may not be removed, potentially could rejoin, or may be banned from membership.

While some may not believe it, the health of the guild has been taken into account and it is for this very reason that these rules have been put in place. We officers held a meeting and talked about the guild and the things we felt we had to do to make the most people happy. We did this because we care about Order of Chaos as a group. If the procedures we adopt to keep our active players happy happen to inconvenience our inactive members ... well ... like I said. Its 9 minutes a year.

[RageKage]

I'm not trying to sound like an ass here, but it may come out like I am.

But where is the respect to your guild members when you disappear for 3 months without saying anything? I assume everyone here are friends, so why is it difficult to say "Hey, I've got something big coming up for the next few weeks or months, you may not see me for awhile" I'd take that as a thanks, you took the time to think of us.

All anyone sees in this is how it affects them personally, how much of a hassle it will be to fill out a form. The effort needed to fill out the form is minuscule, what's going on here is communication, more friendships and really building better relationships between members.

Heck, if someone says "Hey, I'm going on Military service for 6 months, you may not see me for awhile" we could easily and probably will turn that around into a celebration and thanks for the time that person spent with us. Could have a special run through an instance or raid, run naked through Ogrimmar on their last day in game. There's plenty of good things to take from this.

Could we do this without a policy, sure - I'm sad we had to put in a policy for this. But unfortunately for this guild, you have to put a stake in the ground in order for change to happen.

[Death Dealer]

RageKage

I'm not trying to sound like an ass here, but it may come out like I am.

But where is the respect to your guild members when you disappear for 3 months without saying anything? I assume everyone here are friends, so why is it difficult to say "Hey, I've got something big coming up for the next few weeks or months, you may not see me for awhile" I'd take that as a thanks, you took the time to think of us.

All anyone sees in this is how it affects them personally, how much of a hassle it will be to fill out a form. The effort needed to fill out the form is minuscule, what's going on here is communication, more friendships and really building better relationships between members.

Heck, if someone says "Hey, I'm going on Military service for 6 months, you may not see me for awhile" we could easily and probably will turn that around into a celebration and thanks for the time that person spent with us. Could have a special run through an instance or raid, run naked through Ogrimmar on their last day in game. There's plenty of good things to take from this.

Could we do this without a policy, sure - I'm sad we had to put in a policy for this. But unfortunately for this guild, you have to put a stake in the ground in order for change to happen.

haha.. how about a powerlevel run instead *wink* *wink*

having ran a guild for 10 yrs. (yes 10 yrs), i can say this kind of stuff is a needed evil. i saw ALOT of members come and go and it sucks to lose any of them. in the end those that really want to stay will not have a issue with this policy. judging from what i know of OOC and the post already made in this thread. those posting here wont run into a problem with this policy as it is obvious you care to be here. if you are gone for some time the officers here will know about it. so relax.. the ones not here to read this thread are the ones that have to worry about filling out a new APP...

my 2 cents...

[Freaky]

i think people might be missunderstanding the purpose behind this rule.

i see it as pretty much if you are /g kicked due to inactivity then when your RL free up & you can play again, just fill out the form , yadda yadda & you'll get your invite.

Now if you are still playing the game & you leave to try other guilds, cause maybe OoC is having one of those rough raid times, then your spot back is not reserved.

it is kind of like when you ask someone you are leaving "hey if things do not work out, then you think we could get back together again?" Just try that is see how that works out! lol

now officers if i am wrong here please say so.

[Vittoria]

RageKage

I'm not trying to sound like an ass here, but it may come out like I am.

But where is the respect to your guild members when you disappear for 3 months without saying anything? I assume everyone here are friends, so why is it difficult to say "Hey, I've got something big coming up for the next few weeks or months, you may not see me for awhile" I'd take that as a thanks, you took the time to think of us.

All anyone sees in this is how it affects them personally, how much of a hassle it will be to fill out a form. The effort needed to fill out the form is minuscule, what's going on here is communication, more friendships and really building better relationships between members.

Heck, if someone says "Hey, I'm going on Military service for 6 months, you may not see me for awhile" we could easily and probably will turn that around into a celebration and thanks for the time that person spent with us. Could have a special run through an instance or raid, run naked through Ogrimmar on their last day in game. There's plenty of good things to take from this.

Could we do this without a policy, sure - I'm sad we had to put in a policy for this. But unfortunately for this guild, you have to put a stake in the ground in order for change to happen.

First things first, I'm going to apologize in advance for my sucky grammar and paragraph usage lmao. I am rambling cause I feel strongly about a few things here and am in the middle of a huge flare of my fibromyalgia so my brain is just not functioning on the level I'd like it to be. Please bear with me (or hell, bare with me and we can dance nakie on tables in IF) cause I'm going to try to keep this as lighthearted as possible without sounding like superbitch or something

And since I can see this reply was directed at my post, I'm gonna start here...The guild knows exactly why I've been gone rage. I was dancing around everywhere when I graduated, then when I passed my boards and finally when I became licensed to practice. Since graduation and moving cross country last summer I've had four oral surgeries, gotten a job, lost my job, had FOUR DAYS to start a business from pretty much the ground up and rebuild everything in my life including the ending and restarting of a 12 yr relationship.

Anyway, For those of you who don't know...I was called on a monday in June, by the parent company of my office telling me they were "closing soon" and they took everything out of the office on thursday morning, while I was still seeing patients. I spent every night that week taking my stuff out of the office and grabbing a copy of my patient files. Thank god for my family helping out and for having a minivan and a truck! I opened my new office on friday morning...yep, the next day. I lucked out and a friend let me move in with her. Since then, I've been receptionist, billing specialist, chiropractic technologist, web page designer (with treb), courier, office manager, marketing person and doctor because I can't afford to pay people yet. I've brought work home some nights and done paperwork till 3am to get it to an attorney before a court date.

My laptop could not run the game so even if I wanted to I couldn't take those 45 seconds to log in. My desktop graphics and sound are fucked up so I don't use that at all. I'm broke as hell and finally HAD to put a new laptop on the credit card because I couldn't even run my billing software and no billing = no income for me. When I tried logging in on my old laptop, the game froze and then the entire machine locked up. I've had my new dell for 2 weeks, and have been transferring all my work stuff/setting up the databases and crap on it. Finally got that last patch done a few days ago. In my absence from game, Treb's let people know where I've been and I know I've popped into the forums to tell everyone about my new business and shared the website treb and I worked so hard on. (BTW thanks to the people who popped in to visit, we know who you are by the places on the hit map lol. BTW does wolf live under a bush in the middle of nowhere?). Honestly though, when I did tell you guys, the response was minimal - Here's my post from months ago, april I think wandered back... - not to sound petty but notice there's only two replies to it, and no acknowledgment from an officer (don't think Dav was an officer back then). It might not be saving our country, but personally I'm proud of the fact that I overcame a disability that affects me physically and in learning and became a doctor. Now if you decide you want to throw a belated party or something, lol...I second the vote for a gearing run over a naked raid.....

I also mentioned to kin in my PM that the attitude of OoC towards non raiders during TBC has not been good in general. It's turned me off of the game a bit when I log in on a non raid night and LFG in guild for 5 hrs for a group so I can gear to possibly raid in the future and get maybe 1-2 people. I've been PUGging for months cause I can't get any help from guildies. I know when I'm on and have time I always help people needing stuff, even if it means I have to postpone what I'm doing. It would be nice to get an occasional return on the favor rather than being treated like a second class citizen. Yep there's always a few guildies I KNOW I can count on if they're around, but outside that group it's been painful and I feel defeated after a few nights of trying.

I'm not being pissy or anything here...but I've asked twice, this is #3: In all seriousness....have we become a raiding guild? I honestly don't know what our official policy is on that and want to know what it is before I bitch about getting help gearing to raid/learning content/getting groups if it's not the guild's policy any longer.

I understand the need for the booting policy and have no issues at all with. I understand the greener pastures issues and totally agree. But I don't get the reapplication and probation for someone who has never left the guild other than having to be away from the computer for a bit for whatever reason. You can check what guilds someone's been in on the web so you can see they're not wandering off. And the more it's said and the more I think about it, I don't see how my logging in and logging out is any different from not getting a chance to log in. How am I contributing anything to this guild logging in and out just to get on the "safe list" for another 30 days? Same goes for the bf/gf/wife/husband logging on for you? That's flawed logic. "we want you to log in and contribute to things but it'll be ok if you just log on to get your name on the safe list then log off for another 29 days" I've already sent a PM to kin letting him know why I may or may not be around but I can also set an egg timer to log on, clear out my mail and log back off if I haven't really had time to log in cause of work/RL since I have a computer that works now.

Anyway, I'm guessing I probably should stop babbling now if I want to remain in guild lol...cause I'm sure I'm pissing off more than 5 people with my posts heh.

[Lunariel]

Vitt, I understand that you are upset by this policy. In all honesty, you are making far more of it than it actually is.

I can certainly understand that you may have been frustrated with not being able to find groups at times when you do log in. However, I assure you that it is much easier for members to find groups when they have been active in the guild and fostered these relationships. I understand that you have gotten busy (and great job, by the way ), it happens to everyone. When someone leaves us for a while, we look forward to their return. It is unfair, however, for a member to stay gone for months at a time (unable to help anyone during these months) then return and expect the guild to facilitate fun for them on their schedule for a week or so before they disappear for another month or two. Relationships have to be built, and unfortunately rebuilt from time to time.

Are we a raiding guild and what exactly is our direction? I think many of us are waiting for this answer. In the mean time, one thing is for certain: We are trying to build a guild that feels closer. To this end, we are going to make the guild smaller in numbers. We want fewer people saying to themselves "Who the fuck is that?" The policies may seem harsh and unfair. These decisions were not made lightly. Much discussion has gone in to them. In the end however, these decisions are the decisions. The Order of Chaos policy, however unfair it is perceived to be, is the Order of Chaos policy.

Why tell you to just log in every month? It is a measurable objective. It shows that you have at least a modicum of interest in staying a part of Order of Chaos. If someone can't take the 45 seconds to log in once a month, they can suffer through the trauma of 90 seconds spent filling out the application to join when they are able. I would still be shocked if this time exceeded the aforementioned nine minutes per year. In fact, this may actually amount to LESS time.

[Vittoria]

okies, I may be making a bigger deal out of it than it is...so I'll shush now, and sleep before grumbling more lol

Do want to clear up one thing though...

Lunariel

I can certainly understand that you may have been frustrated with not being able to find groups at times when you do log in. However, I assure you that it is much easier for members to find groups when they have been active in the guild and fostered these relationships. I understand that you have gotten busy (and great job, by the way ), it happens to everyone. When someone leaves us for a while, we look forward to their return. It is unfair, however, for a member to stay gone for months at a time (unable to help anyone during these months) then return and expect the guild to facilitate fun for them on their schedule for a week or so before they disappear for another month or two. Relationships have to be built, and unfortunately rebuilt from time to time.

What I meant by this is that it is one of the reasons I stopped logging into game in the first place. I was on regularly and couldn't get groups so logged on less and less. I get that when I come back, I don't expect people to jump at my request. I mean, come on...I know I'm a princess, but don't expect everyone to acknowledge this and act accordingly hehe :P

[Lunariel]

Vittoria

Do want to clear up one thing though...



What I meant by this is that it is one of the reasons I stopped logging into game in the first place. I was on regularly and couldn't get groups so logged on less and less. I get that when I come back, I don't expect people to jump at my request. I mean, come on...I know I'm a princess, but don't expect everyone to acknowledge this and act accordingly hehe :P

I understand now. Well, this is just a further illustration of some of the problems in Order of Chaos.

[Neit]

(you people type to much so I just skimmed most of that)

I don't mind the app process so much as I'd mind logging in to talk to friends and not having the /g channel to talk to them in until the necessary paperwork had been done, which I'd guess would take at least a day. If someone only gets to log in occasionally they also might only be able to log in that one day, so they would effectively be out of the guild completely.

Maybe you could add a new guild rank (Veteran Member?). Those people who have been around forever and a day could then be voted on by the officers to gain this rank and then they'd never be booted for inactivity without a second officer vote to demote them first. Then Fi will have a nice list of people to come beat the crap out of if she logs in and has no guild :)

[RageKage]

I didn't quite expect the details to where you've been to justify an absence - honestly, the way things worked up until the date of this post is quite different. This isn't really a "raiding guild" type policy, this is simply a guild dynamic we've never really done before. Some games limit you to 24 hours of inactivity and you're out, we're not that extreme at all - just an example.

This is a social game, we understand that - but how long do we wait for someone to return? Forever? How is that fair to those who are still playing not knowing if you're coming back? All we're saying is be considerate to your guild mates, make the effort to communicate.

What people should be taking from this is that we'll not be going through the guild list and booting simply on one field in the listing. Our goal is for fewer /gremoves not more.

Note: Vitt, I speak to you but my comments are meant to be taking as general statements.

[Muljaque]

Well in going over it I'm sure that everyone is just trying to do what is right, and I'm sure that common sense can always apply.

If someone is unable to connect in game for a technical reason (i.e, sucky laptop), just dropping a note say on the forum would at least get word, right?

And worst case, say someone were unable to communicate at all for a legitimate reason, all you'd have to do is tell someone once you were able, and I trust them to take that into consideration.